Prok Vision 2

[musicus]

Curious to know your take on the attached excerpt from Prok's Vision fugitive #2, Op.22, for piano, meas.13.
He added an extra staff above for those Gs. The question is how to play it. I believe I have a solution, but I wanted your opinion(s). In meas.13 how does one play the upper half-note G (marked "F") while playing the lower one (marked "P") at the same time, with two different dynamics? Many thanks. I know this is not exactly a Finale question but please indulge me

[John Ruggero]

I would play the f broken octave "bell" in m. 13 exactly as I would play the following ones since they must all match. The first note of the p melody is covered over by the bell but "heard" in retrospect as p because of all the p melody notes that follow it. It's the kind of sleight of hand that is the stock in trade of piano music and pianists.

[musicus]

Your analysis fits perfectly with mine!
There is also the orchestral aspect that is "heard." The melody instrument plays while the
bell rings.

I would play the f broken octave "bell" in m. 13 exactly as I would play the following ones since they must all match. The first note of the p melody is covered over by the bell but "heard" in retrospect as p because of all the p melody notes that follow it. It's the kind of sleight of hand that is the stock in trade of piano music and pianists.

[John Ruggero]

Your analysis fits perfectly with mine!

I thought it would!

There is also the orchestral aspect that is "heard." The melody instrument plays while the bell rings

Exactly!

[musicus]

And again I especially like your phrase " ' heard" in retrospect' ." You are a cut above most!
It's a pleasure to read your responses.

Your analysis fits perfectly with mine!
There is also the orchestral aspect that is "heard." The melody instrument plays while the
bell rings.

I would play the f broken octave "bell" in m. 13 exactly as I would play the following ones since they must all match. The first note of the p melody is covered over by the bell but "heard" in retrospect as p because of all the p melody notes that follow it. It's the kind of sleight of hand that is the stock in trade of piano music and pianists.

[John Ruggero]

Thank you very much for your compliment, musicus!

Here's one for you:

What's with the fermata on the B natural?

[musicus]

I'm not seeing any problem with the fermata. Can you perhaps clarify
your question?

Thank you very much for your compliment, musicus!

Here's one for you:

What's with the fermata on the B natural?

Beethoven op. 54.1.png

[John Ruggero]

Just interested in knowing how you would play the passage so that the hold on the B natural sounds natural and convincing.i have always found it hard to interpret. But I think I may now have the solution and wonder if you came up with something similar.

Looking at the first edition at https://ks15.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/0/0a/IMSLP51157-PMLP01475-Op.54.pdf could be helpful.

[musicus]

You have made me really think about this! I have played this piece before, now I’m taking a new look at it. One way to look at it (and I'm sure it's not the only way) is, 1. Beeth wants to get back to the
main theme (he does), 2. he wants to reflect and 3. he wants to get there smoothly, not clumsily. I have attached some examples of how an “average” composer might approach it. As far as the performance, I would like to do a YT vid of that section. If I manage to do it, may I mention you and/or Finale forum?

Thank you very much for your compliment, musicus!

Here's one for you:

What's with the fermata on the B natural?

Beethoven op. 54.1.png

[John Ruggero]

Judging from the examples, I think you may be thinking about it differently than I do, but of course you may mention my post if you do a video about it.

[musicus]

My wife (a non-musician) opined that there's a contradiction between the triplet figure and the fermata. Is that what you meant? Also, I wanted to be sure about using your name on the vid. That OK?

Judging from the examples, I think you may be thinking about it differently than I do, but of course you may mention my post if you do a video about it.

[John Ruggero]

Its hard to discuss this without actually giving my interpretation away, but let's just say that to me the passage seems pretty straightforward without the fermata.

And I do think that your wife is on to something. My wife is also a non-musician, and she often comes up with musical stuff that amazes me.

I see no problem with using my name. Is there a concern that I am not aware of? These days almost everything seems perilous.

[musicus]

How 'bout this: I'll do the video and I'm most interested in hearing your interpretation
after I post it. I feel that there is no contradiction between the triplet and the fermata.
(My wife called it formaggio.) I'll let you know when it's up.

Its hard to discuss this without actually giving my interpretation away, but let's just say that to me the passage seems pretty straightforward without the fermata.

And I do think that your wife is on to something. My wife is also a non-musician, and she often comes up with musical stuff that amazes me.

I see no problem with using my name. Is there a concern that I am not aware of? These days almost everything seems perilous.

[John Ruggero]

Sure. I look forward to it. Beethoven "cheesy"? Never!

[musicus]

Bravo.

Sure. I look forward to it. Beethoven "cheesy"? Never!

[musicus]

Thanks again for your interesting question! My viewpoint on it is here:
https://youtu.be/_CJo-IN_JT4
Looking forward to your interpretation of the fermata.

Bravo.

Sure. I look forward to it. Beethoven "cheesy"? Never!

[John Ruggero]

Ah! Just watched your video. That's all I was looking for: that the fermata probably was intended to encompass all three notes of the triplet (its not completely clear in the first edition, and the manuscript copy is lost) not just the B natural, as appears in the Breitkopf complete works that I posted above and in many other editions. Your edition happens to have the three note fermata. I have a Wiener Urtext that does as well.

Some editors, like Schenker, have omitted the fermata, perhaps because they were not convinced by its placement over the B natural only. I've always used the Schenker edition, so I was puzzled when I first noticed the fermata in other editions.

Even placed over all three notes, it seems redundant and exaggerated to me since he has the Adagio and the slower note values. So there may be something else at work here. When I get a chance I will post on analysis on Notat.io that shows why I think Beethoven placed the fermata in such a strange place and why it shouldn't be taken too seriously when considering how to play the passage.

[musicus]

Thank you for watching it and for your comments. Just a theory on my part here, maybe Beethoven placed the fermata in addition to the Adagio out of a lack of confidence in the performer's willingness to hold back the tempo there. This is not based on any evidence, just an intuition. Or possibly, he lacked confidence in word descriptions - Adagio, allegro, etc. - which he mentioned later on in life in connection with the advent of the metronome. Thanks again for your observations

Ah! Just watched your video. That's all I was looking for: that the fermata probably was intended to encompass all three notes of the triplet (its not completely clear in the first edition, and the manuscript copy is lost) not just the B natural, as appears in the Breitkopf complete works that I posted above, and in many other editions. Your edition happens to have the three note fermata. I have a Wiener Urtext that does as well.

Some editors, like Schenker, have omitted the fermata, perhaps because they were not convinced by its placement over the B natural only. I've always used the Schenker edition, so I was puzzled when I first noticed the fermata in other editions.

Even placed over all three notes, it seems redundant and exaggerated to me since he has the Adagio and the slower note values. So there may be something else at work here. When I get a chance I will post on analysis on Notat.io that shows why I think Beethoven placed the fermata in such a strange place and why it shouldn't be taken too seriously when considering how to play the passage.

[John Ruggero]

That's certainly a possible explanation, but I don't think I've seen any other cases of this kind elsewhere in Beethoven's piano music. He notates everything so precisely and seems to expect a lot of the player's intelligence. So I am thinking that there is another explanation.

[musicus]

I'll give you that.

That's certainly a possible explanation, but I don't think I've seen any other cases of this kind of thing elsewhere in Beethoven's piano music. He notates everything so precisely and seems to expect a lot of the player's intelligence. So I am thinking that there is another explanation.