Is It Really SO Over With Finale?

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Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:38 am

This is the only forum where I recognize some familiar nicks from old MakeMusic forum.

Obviously, I just joined, and I don't see much of this topic around here, so I'll stop if users are not in the mood.

I feel, however, that there should be a space - independent from the official one - where the users gather to voice their opinions and concerns.

The thing is, many of us have loads of files - some very complex - we created on the way through years, and it won't work to just try open in Dorico.


Bill Stevens
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Post by Bill Stevens » Tue Jan 21, 2025 1:03 pm

Just make sure you have PDF's and XML's of everything. This is a lot of work, but there are ways to batch process folders.

XML's open in Dorico, though even the simplest ones require some work.

::: Bill
Version 26.3 / 27.4 / Mac OS 10.15.5 Catalina
Finale user since the beginning of time.

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:11 pm

Finale will continue to work on your computer for some time; but you need to be prepared for the day when it won't. MakeMusic won't give you any support, nor an updated version.

As Bill says, make sure you've got PDFs and MusicXML files of everything.
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:38 am
The thing is, many of us have loads of files - some very complex - we created on the way through years, and it won't work to just try open in Dorico.
You're right that all documents will require "some revision" in Dorico, or any other app. For some projects, it might be nothing more than a few tweaks here and there; but for others, it will require some work to get them into shape.
However, you'll find the Dorico forum very helpful in advice for how to get the results you want. And of course, future versions of Dorico may make things easier.
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:38 am
I feel, however, that there should be a space - independent from the official one - where the users gather to voice their opinions and concerns.
There have been a lot of opinions ventured on the subject. We've seen Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression; but I think most people are now at Acceptance. It's the hand that's been dealt.

Bill Stevens
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Post by Bill Stevens » Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:30 pm

Mr Icognito,

I started working with Dorico the day the crossgrade was offered. I found the transition immensely frustrating with Finale XML's showing up in Dorico looking like a rat's nest of squiggles. But over time I made a list of steps to take when importing XML so that the work I have to do on the Dorico side is usually not too bad. As Buontempi wrote, there is plenty of patient help to be found at the Dorico forum (including Buontempi himself) and instructional videos. I have not yet turned my back on Finale, but after a few months Dorico begins to make sense.

::: Bill
Version 26.3 / 27.4 / Mac OS 10.15.5 Catalina
Finale user since the beginning of time.

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:57 pm

Thanks for the responses!

I decided against Dorico. I don't want to be some day again in the situation like with Finale now. Sibelius has also changed their terms too many times for my taste. I'd rather gradually go for the Lilypond/Frescobaldi, than allow situation like this arise again. The output of Lilypond is second to none, and it does open the xml version of FInale files.

I have no problems keeping some old hardware to keep running Finale. However, my concern is what happens after support is dropped altogether. I believe it would be only fair for Finale to be decoupled from registration on external servers. That would really be the bare minimum of fair play. Otherwise, it may happen that Finale calls back home, and there is nobody to answer, so saving becomes impossible.

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:29 pm

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:57 pm
I believe it would be only fair for Finale to be decoupled from registration on external servers. That would really be the bare minimum of fair play. Otherwise, it may happen that Finale calls back home, and there is nobody to answer, so saving becomes impossible.
Finale only phones home when it needs to get the authorization response for the hardware it's running on. Once the authorization code is on your computer, then you're good. It doesn't check again.

Creating a new build of Finale that doesn't run the authorization routines would be more cost and investment on the Finale ledger -- it may be more complicated than just deleting a few lines; and they would have to test and check that it wasn't causing any unforeseen problems on anyone's setups.

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm

I personally have problem with the sentimentally lenient approach towards Finale's owners. When they were selling Finale 27, did they mention they would completely blow it off in a near future? That would have been some advertising pitch. In my opinion more should have been done for the users. A reasonable option would have been FREE Dorico, and FREE Dorico transition (with classes and bells with whistles).

I understand that registration is once per installation on a single device. For a variety of reasons, I have to do it several times a year.

The decoupling from registration servers would be something like a bare bones minimum. I don't think it would be expensive, and the only thing I see which is expensive, is the trouble caused thus far to the users, and even more foreseeable trouble in the future.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:48 pm

Isolating and disabling the registration check in the code should indeed be easy. That would make Finale freeware for all, though, which would potentially last a long time, at least on Windows, so perhaps Dorico and the like wouldn't like that.

I think Finale 27 is garbage, so it likely wouldn't help me personally.

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:27 pm

motet wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:48 pm
Isolating and disabling the registration check in the code should indeed be easy. That would make Finale freeware for all, though, which would potentially last a long time, at least on Windows, so perhaps Dorico and the like wouldn't like that.

I think Finale 27 is garbage, so it likely wouldn't help me personally.
It would only make sense to unlock any and every Finale version. BTW, Finale wasn't locked by authorization for the most of its existence. And if it doesn't suit other companies - well, one cannot please everyone...

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:48 pm

Likely the only way to unlock it would be to change the code and recompile. They're not going to do that for old versions.

Peter S.
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Post by Peter S. » Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:14 am

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:57 pm
I decided against Dorico.
Me too.
I bought a laptop where I want to install Finale. And then I will not go online on this computer again, so I might get the chance to work on finale almost infinitely... I am almost 60, and this will solve the problem...

Peter
Finale 2009 and 27/German on Windows 10

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:24 am

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm
I personally have problem with the sentimentally lenient approach towards Finale's owners. When they were selling Finale 27, did they mention they would completely blow it off in a near future?
"If you don't buy it, we might not make it anymore!" :lol: They literally had a fire sale, where they slashed the price of purchases and upgrades, in the hopes to gain enough revenue to keep it going; but that still wasn't enough.

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm
In my opinion more should have been done for the users. A reasonable option would have been FREE Dorico, and FREE Dorico transition (with classes and bells with whistles).
Is it really reasonable, for a business with a loss-making product to give $1000 of software and training to everyone who ever bought it?

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm
The decoupling from registration servers would be something like a bare bones minimum. I don't think it would be expensive, and the only thing I see which is expensive, is the trouble caused thus far to the users, and even more foreseeable trouble in the future.
It's 5 months since the announcement. No one is working on Finale anymore. It's done.

Yes, it's a shock, and a painful reminder of how much we rely on all kinds of fragile things, in our 21st-century privilege. You can keep using Finale; but just like people who use Encore or SCORE, you'll have to maintain the environment yourself, and hope nothing breaks. And be prepared when it does.

Peter S. wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:14 am
And then I will not go online on this computer again, so I might get the chance to work on finale almost infinitely... I am almost 60, and this will solve the problem...
Finale doesn't "phone home", once authorized. You don't need to stay offline. Your biggest problem will be Windows 11 updates....

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jan 23, 2025 5:21 pm

Peter S. wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:14 am
And then I will not go online on this computer again...
I just tried disconnecting from the Internet and then running Finale and it works fine, so I suspect it's somehow recorded it's registration internally somewhere rather than checking the MM server each time it runs. But if that were the case, then "deauthorization" wouldn't work, so I don't know. Perhaps it checks periodically?

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:19 pm

Deauthorization needs to contact the server to "unregister" your installation from MM's count of your authorised seats. You can also do this from the website, in your account.
Authorization also contacts the server. Finale sends a code based on your hardware profile, and the server returns a response. The response is stored on your computer, and is used to verify the hardware profile each launch.

Finale does not contact the server again. If the server shuts down, Finale will continue to work until the hardware profile code doesn't 'match' the response code stored on your disk.

On a Mac, the authorisation codes are stored at /Library/Application Support/MakeMusic/, in a hidden file called .regdata27.txt. I imagine on Windows it will be stored in the Registry.

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:43 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:24 am
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm
I personally have problem with the sentimentally lenient approach towards Finale's owners. When they were selling Finale 27, did they mention they would completely blow it off in a near future?
BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:24 am
"If you don't buy it, we might not make it anymore!" :lol: They literally had a fire sale, where they slashed the price of purchases and upgrades, in the hopes to gain enough revenue to keep it going; but that still wasn't enough.
That is exactly the 'sentimentally lenient approach towards Finale's owners' I was talking about.

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm
In my opinion more should have been done for the users. A reasonable option would have been FREE Dorico, and FREE Dorico transition (with classes and bells with whistles).
BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:24 am
Is it really reasonable, for a business with a loss-making product to give $1000 of software and training to everyone who ever bought it?
Another instance.
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:49 pm
The decoupling from registration servers would be something like a bare bones minimum. I don't think it would be expensive, and the only thing I see which is expensive, is the trouble caused thus far to the users, and even more foreseeable trouble in the future.
BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:24 am
It's 5 months since the announcement. No one is working on Finale anymore. It's done.
Not correct. Many do.
BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:24 am
Yes, it's a shock, and a painful reminder of how much we rely on all kinds of fragile things, in our 21st-century privilege. You can keep using Finale; but just like people who use Encore or SCORE, you'll have to maintain the environment yourself, and hope nothing breaks. And be prepared when it does.
One should be prepared, but not accept everything on bad terms.

Seems like several users are uncomfortable with this authorization staying.

If they are not supporting, not selling, not planning to do anything with Finale in the future, why they just don't get rid of us?

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:28 pm

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:43 pm
That is exactly the 'sentimentally lenient approach towards Finale's owners' I was talking about.
One man's sentimental leniency is another's pragmatic realism. What would you like me to do? Throw some choice insults? I can shout and scream and threaten legal action, and demand that they continue to throw money at it, if you think it will help. Or start a petition to request that they open source the code. There's even conspiracy theories about Finale's demise I could echo. But since others have already done this without success, I'm not sure there's much point.
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:43 pm
Not correct. Many do.
Development has ceased. There'll be some people fielding support enquiries, until August. Oh, and someone looking after the server.
Who else is working on Finale? Even the CEO who wrote the letter has gone.
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:43 pm
If they are not supporting, not selling, not planning to do anything with Finale in the future, why they just don't get rid of us?
Get rid of us .... more than washing their hands of the whole thing this August?

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:56 pm

I believe you can or could deauthorize a copy that's not longer on a working machine by logging in to MMs website, this freeing up a slot to authorize another copy. If authorization/deauthorization works the way you say, what has kept keep someone from repeatedly deauthorizing and reauthorizing on more and more machines? If it never checks after being authorized, a copy won't know it's been deauthorized.

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:38 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:28 pm
Or start a petition to request that they open source the code. There's even conspiracy theories about Finale's demise I could echo.
Your idea about petition is actually pretty sound.

BTW, didn't know that even Finale managed to get into conspiracy theories :D

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:39 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:56 pm
I believe you can or could deauthorize a copy that's not longer on a working machine by logging in to MMs website, this freeing up a slot to authorize another copy. If authorization/deauthorization works the way you say, what has kept keep someone from repeatedly deauthorizing and reauthorizing on more and more machines? If it never checks after being authorized, a copy won't know it's been deauthorized.
Anybody tried IRL?

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:22 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:56 pm
I believe you can or could deauthorize a copy that's not longer on a working machine by logging in to MMs website, this freeing up a slot to authorize another copy. If authorization/deauthorization works the way you say, what has kept keep someone from repeatedly deauthorizing and reauthorizing on more and more machines? If it never checks after being authorized, a copy won't know it's been deauthorized.
Yes, I imagine that someone could backup the registration state, de-authorize Finale, and then restore the registration state on disk.

It's certainly possible to make the demo be "day 0" of 30 days forever.

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:22 pm

Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:38 pm
Your idea about petition is actually pretty sound.
Currently at 1200 signatures.

https://www.change.org/p/release-finale-music-notation-software-to-the-open-source-community

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:35 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:22 pm
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:38 pm
Your idea about petition is actually pretty sound.
Currently at 1200 signatures.

https://www.change.org/p/release-finale-music-notation-software-to-the-open-source-community
Excellent, at 10k the goal will likely be achieved.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:30 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:22 pm
Yes, I imagine that someone could backup the registration state, de-authorize Finale, and then restore the registration state on disk.
I think you missed my point. If Finale never checks the web server once it's been authorized, then if you deauthorize via the MM server, how would the deauthorized copy ever know it's been deauthorized?

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:24 am

motet wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:30 pm
I think you missed my point. If Finale never checks the web server once it's been authorized, then if you deauthorize via the MM server, how would the deauthorized copy ever know it's been deauthorized?
Ah. Good point. I'm not sure. However, I have known other software that did exactly that -- you could still use your deactivated copy.

Finale's licensing system is very simple; and I dare say that someone will work out how to generate the response codes, or otherwise crack it.
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:35 pm
Excellent, at 10k the goal will likely be achieved.
Assuming that MM feels any obligation to comply; or is legally able to release the code. (It may contain code licensed to them from others.) They have already said that they won't release it.

Mr_Incognito
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Post by Mr_Incognito » Fri Jan 24, 2025 2:12 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:24 am
Mr_Incognito wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:35 pm
Excellent, at 10k the goal will likely be achieved.
Assuming that MM feels any obligation to comply; or is legally able to release the code. (It may contain code licensed to them from others.) They have already said that they won't release it.

At some stage the owner company wii want to get rid of the Finale users altogether. Better to have a working software for good, than to be unable to activate at some stage. They don't have to open source it, although that would be a favor to the culture of music in the world.

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